Comments on: More on Modesty http://magdalenaperks.wordpress.com/2009/01/09/more-on-modesty/ recovering the Quaker ethos for Anglicans Thu, 12 Nov 2009 22:24:44 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Magdalena Julie Bragdon Perks http://magdalenaperks.wordpress.com/2009/01/09/more-on-modesty/#comment-196 Magdalena Julie Bragdon Perks Sat, 10 Jan 2009 15:25:39 +0000 http://magdalenaperks.wordpress.com/?p=286#comment-196 I agree that with someone we know well, direct eye contact is considered friendly and showing of trust. In business situations it is crucial, or people think one is shifty! But with men I don't know well, or who have already been too forward, I do maintain custody of the eyes. In other cultures it is considered a sign of respect not to look in the eyes. I learned that working with Native Americans. Elders expected that kind of modesty; some African and Asian cultures also practice it. One has to be sensitive to the situation! It is sometimes a problem for Old Orders, that people think they are aloof when they are being modest. Thank you for the blog link. I am always willing to share others' insights. It's nice when they agree with me, but there is room in the tent for varieties of practice, within the bounds of scripture and the tradition that interprets scripture. My husband is actually Cockney, although a Canadian. His parents immigrated back when Canada was looking for skilled labour. That would explain the similarities to some degree, since he is very British. I am an American of Canadian background. Thank you so much, Sarah and our sister in Alaska, for your insight and contribution. God bless you! I agree that with someone we know well, direct eye contact is considered friendly and showing of trust. In business situations it is crucial, or people think one is shifty! But with men I don’t know well, or who have already been too forward, I do maintain custody of the eyes. In other cultures it is considered a sign of respect not to look in the eyes. I learned that working with Native Americans. Elders expected that kind of modesty; some African and Asian cultures also practice it. One has to be sensitive to the situation!
It is sometimes a problem for Old Orders, that people think they are aloof when they are being modest.

Thank you for the blog link. I am always willing to share others’ insights. It’s nice when they agree with me, but there is room in the tent for varieties of practice, within the bounds of scripture and the tradition that interprets scripture.

My husband is actually Cockney, although a Canadian. His parents immigrated back when Canada was looking for skilled labour. That would explain the similarities to some degree, since he is very British. I am an American of Canadian background.

Thank you so much, Sarah and our sister in Alaska, for your insight and contribution. God bless you!

]]> By: Sarah http://magdalenaperks.wordpress.com/2009/01/09/more-on-modesty/#comment-195 Sarah Sat, 10 Jan 2009 12:14:32 +0000 http://magdalenaperks.wordpress.com/?p=286#comment-195 Dearest Magdelaina, At the risk of overstepping protocol and manners, I have found myself constrained to share a blog address of another plain dressing Headcovering Christian that truly spoke to me and immediately brought you, your example, and your ministry to mind. http://goingdeeperwithchrist.blogspot.com/2008/08/head-coverings-here-at-home.html is the Holy Spirit indeed moving among women around the globe, across the entire denominational spectrum to find themselves called to headcovering and simplicity of modesty at an increasing rate? I smiled when hearing of your husband's style of humour; self deprocating humour is incredibly Australian; Seing as We are both from former british colonies with not a little in common, could this trait be one of those commonalities between you Canadians and we Australians? May god continue to bless you, and all the readers of this blog (and a hurting tired old world thirsting for Christ without either knowing it or accepting it)... Sarah. Dearest Magdelaina,

At the risk of overstepping protocol and manners, I have found myself constrained to share a blog address of another plain dressing Headcovering Christian that truly spoke to me and immediately brought you, your example, and your ministry to mind. http://goingdeeperwithchrist.blogspot.com/2008/08/head-coverings-here-at-home.html

is the Holy Spirit indeed moving among women around the globe, across the entire denominational spectrum to find themselves called to headcovering and simplicity of modesty at an increasing rate?

I smiled when hearing of your husband’s style of humour; self deprocating humour is incredibly Australian; Seing as We are both from former british colonies with not a little in common, could this trait be one of those commonalities between you Canadians and we Australians?

May god continue to bless you, and all the readers of this blog (and a hurting tired old world thirsting for Christ without either knowing it or accepting it)…

Sarah.

]]> By: akhomeschoolfun http://magdalenaperks.wordpress.com/2009/01/09/more-on-modesty/#comment-194 akhomeschoolfun Sat, 10 Jan 2009 03:35:52 +0000 http://magdalenaperks.wordpress.com/?p=286#comment-194 I agree with everything except eye contact. I think making eye contact is important to a conversation. It shows the other person you are listening and respect what they say. Modesty above all else shows respect to others. I agree with everything except eye contact. I think making eye contact is important to a conversation. It shows the other person you are listening and respect what they say. Modesty above all else shows respect to others.

]]> By: Magdalena Julie Bragdon Perks http://magdalenaperks.wordpress.com/2009/01/09/more-on-modesty/#comment-193 Magdalena Julie Bragdon Perks Sat, 10 Jan 2009 00:44:25 +0000 http://magdalenaperks.wordpress.com/?p=286#comment-193 Amber, I didn't mean that covering while wearing a t-shirt and jeans was wrong; I really was thinking of the prayer cap. When I go to the gym or shear sheep, I wear jeans and then I cover with a bandanna. I meant that we can't go around in worldly clothes with just a cover to say that we are modest. I'm certain thee is a Godly example to thy charges. I'm praying that thy anxiety attacks lessen and even leave thee; I've had them myself in some circumstances. I covered in church for years before I covered daily, and then I realized that we are to Pray without ceasing;" when in my life am I not praying, with thought, word or action? Of course, the covering represents the headship of Christ himself, and women have the honour of expressing it directly. God bless thee in thy decision of chastity! It is a holy gift, like unto the angels. Amber, I didn’t mean that covering while wearing a t-shirt and jeans was wrong; I really was thinking of the prayer cap. When I go to the gym or shear sheep, I wear jeans and then I cover with a bandanna. I meant that we can’t go around in worldly clothes with just a cover to say that we are modest. I’m certain thee is a Godly example to thy charges. I’m praying that thy anxiety attacks lessen and even leave thee; I’ve had them myself in some circumstances. I covered in church for years before I covered daily, and then I realized that we are to Pray without ceasing;” when in my life am I not praying, with thought, word or action? Of course, the covering represents the headship of Christ himself, and women have the honour of expressing it directly. God bless thee in thy decision of chastity! It is a holy gift, like unto the angels.

]]> By: amberpeace http://magdalenaperks.wordpress.com/2009/01/09/more-on-modesty/#comment-192 amberpeace Fri, 09 Jan 2009 23:47:23 +0000 http://magdalenaperks.wordpress.com/?p=286#comment-192 I wore a scarf on my head to all my days of work last week. I was nervous, but I did it. Only the girls in the group home, not my coworkers, asked me me 1. What was on my head? and 2. Why? These girls who come from some of the worst situations, who ravage their bodies with chemicals, who are 16 with 2 children and actively are trying to have a third - see me as nothing short of weird. My lack of knowledge about tv shows mystify them. The fact that I left the teen years still a virgin confuses them. And, of course, my clothing is nothing short of odd. When I worked in the boys home, the boys outright made fun of my clothing. The girls don't do that - but you can tell they don't know what to think. Most of the girls do see me as someone who is fair, one who doesn't pick favorites, and who works hard to take care of them. I hope that my temperment of modesty is one that teaches something to them. Now, I do wear my head covered with tshirts and jeans. However, I haven't been convicted about this. Maybe I will. I was convicted about covering my head in worship. It was in an instant after months of reading about it and wondering. It also wasn't because of being a woman of modesty. I suddenly had an anxiety attack during confession. These happen to me several times a week. As we kneeled, my arms went numb, I felt my eyes bulging from raised blood pressure. My face felt so hot that it made the top of my head itch. Suddenly I thought that if I just covered myself with the shawl I was wearing, I would feel better. I did so and the pain died down. I felt awkward though, covering. So I took it off my head. The pain returned and a thought was given to me. My fear comes from thinking that I am not protected, that God does not cover me. This covering reminds me of the love and grace that covers me. So, I wear a cover as an object lesson to myself - that I am loved. Grace covers my sins and love covers my pain. When I am covered it also reminds me that everything I do is to be holy and sacred work. I don't know why it does that yet :) I wore a scarf on my head to all my days of work last week. I was nervous, but I did it. Only the girls in the group home, not my coworkers, asked me me 1. What was on my head? and 2. Why? These girls who come from some of the worst situations, who ravage their bodies with chemicals, who are 16 with 2 children and actively are trying to have a third – see me as nothing short of weird. My lack of knowledge about tv shows mystify them. The fact that I left the teen years still a virgin confuses them. And, of course, my clothing is nothing short of odd. When I worked in the boys home, the boys outright made fun of my clothing. The girls don’t do that – but you can tell they don’t know what to think. Most of the girls do see me as someone who is fair, one who doesn’t pick favorites, and who works hard to take care of them. I hope that my temperment of modesty is one that teaches something to them.

Now, I do wear my head covered with tshirts and jeans. However, I haven’t been convicted about this. Maybe I will. I was convicted about covering my head in worship. It was in an instant after months of reading about it and wondering. It also wasn’t because of being a woman of modesty. I suddenly had an anxiety attack during confession. These happen to me several times a week. As we kneeled, my arms went numb, I felt my eyes bulging from raised blood pressure. My face felt so hot that it made the top of my head itch. Suddenly I thought that if I just covered myself with the shawl I was wearing, I would feel better. I did so and the pain died down. I felt awkward though, covering. So I took it off my head. The pain returned and a thought was given to me. My fear comes from thinking that I am not protected, that God does not cover me. This covering reminds me of the love and grace that covers me. So, I wear a cover as an object lesson to myself – that I am loved. Grace covers my sins and love covers my pain. When I am covered it also reminds me that everything I do is to be holy and sacred work. I don’t know why it does that yet :)

]]> By: Magdalena Julie Bragdon Perks http://magdalenaperks.wordpress.com/2009/01/09/more-on-modesty/#comment-191 Magdalena Julie Bragdon Perks Fri, 09 Jan 2009 22:57:54 +0000 http://magdalenaperks.wordpress.com/?p=286#comment-191 Sarah, many many thanks for thy kind words. I could not agree more about the modesty of men; I will write on this some other time. It has been in my heart to write a companion piece to "What Christian Women Want in Men" from the perspective of what I have learned especially from my own good husband! I am greatly blessed by a husband who is a faithful believer and a good husband. He does not demand obedience, but he does expect it. On the occasions when I may argue a bit he reminds me who is in charge of the household. Then he will poke fun at himself doing it! He is blessed with a generous sense of humour, often self-deprecating. I wish now that I had been more obedient to my father when I was young. He is a wonderfully wise, intelligent man, and if only I had seen that sooner! My own "rumspringa" may have been a bit extended because I was rebellious. God's blessings to thee, sister. Sarah, many many thanks for thy kind words.

I could not agree more about the modesty of men; I will write on this some other time. It has been in my heart to write a companion piece to “What Christian Women Want in Men” from the perspective of what I have learned especially from my own good husband!

I am greatly blessed by a husband who is a faithful believer and a good husband. He does not demand obedience, but he does expect it. On the occasions when I may argue a bit he reminds me who is in charge of the household. Then he will poke fun at himself doing it! He is blessed with a generous sense of humour, often self-deprecating.

I wish now that I had been more obedient to my father when I was young. He is a wonderfully wise, intelligent man, and if only I had seen that sooner! My own “rumspringa” may have been a bit extended because I was rebellious.

God’s blessings to thee, sister.

]]> By: SarahSarah Elliott http://magdalenaperks.wordpress.com/2009/01/09/more-on-modesty/#comment-190 SarahSarah Elliott Fri, 09 Jan 2009 21:54:21 +0000 http://magdalenaperks.wordpress.com/?p=286#comment-190 Dear Magdelaina, This is brilliant!! It's beyond brilliant, it's Divinely Inspired. You may say this is obvious, for it is the Word of God distilled, but it is truly a timely call in a hurting, rebellious, suffering world that would be well on its way to healing if God and God's word here were grasped by the ordinary follower, with all that is written in the NT re: this sort of thing. Indeed, as you so rightly point out, Modesty (as is 'Hijab' and 'Tsnius' more than just what we clothe our bodies in, but an entire way of living and conducting oneself in the public [and wider private] sphere) (Not forgetting that a measured temperant life is also necessary within the home itself). I note the Hijabis in our area, gentle, kind of word, quiet in their demeanour; a grace and poise that is lost these days in the wider world and so often misinterpreted as 'oppresion' or if practiced in Christian circles 'legalism'. A brief aside on Legalism: I believe many bandy this term about without truly understanding what it means; legalism is one striving in their own strength to win the grace (unmerited gift) of God. Obedience ( the root of this modern word actually meaning 'to listen') is one doing a thing, behaving in a certain way because out of selfless love; and joyful realization of the gift they do have. For instance: those of us with husbands (and husbands, this also applies to you with your wives) give of ourselves, our love, our words of encouragement, our actions our behaviours, render gentle kindnesses, support, loving affection and the like, not to win their love, but because we are so moved to do so out of a profound recognition that we are already loved, and in thus giving, are joyed to bring happiness and comfort to the one we love. I muse; what would this world be like if as many Christian men and women understood the meaning, benefit and value of Christian modesty in the same way Muslim men and women understand 'hijab' or the orthodox Jew who observes 'Tsnius'. Oh, and gentlemen reading this, modesty is for you as well; There are several excellent Quaker articles (that are wise counsel for all Christian men) concerning male modesty of attire and attitude; there need to be more of these written I believe. Concerning behaviour that stands out, with immediate family and husband who are not believers (they've decided for the world's way) it can be hard to avoid such; I pray for patience and a reform of heart with my hubby, and do what I can when out to help him not act in a way that he will regret when back home and sober... It would be so easy to rant and nag, but this will merely serve to hurt (and is, in retrospect, 'immodest'). Prayer and living the quieter life (with prayer being the most powerful) will achieve Godly aims far more than ranting. How much pain would be saved if Christian modesty was authentically and humbly observed in and out of the home and people took it seriously in their own lives and the lives of others? All the hurt and terrible heartache suffered by the vulnerable who are victims to predatory behaviour would at the very least, be greatly reduced. Finally, at the heart of this is the command given by Christ Himself; 'love thy neighbour as thyself' and to do unto others as we would want them to do unto us. May God bless thee abundantly; I have found myself vigourously nodding in agreement with everything you have written (but do not wish to block up the works of this blog with hundreds of comments :-) blessings, Sarah, Australia. Dear Magdelaina,

This is brilliant!! It’s beyond brilliant, it’s Divinely Inspired. You may say this is obvious, for it is the Word of God distilled, but it is truly a timely call in a hurting, rebellious, suffering world that would be well on its way to healing if God and God’s word here were grasped by the ordinary follower, with all that is written in the NT re: this sort of thing. Indeed, as you so rightly point out, Modesty (as is ‘Hijab’ and ‘Tsnius’ more than just what we clothe our bodies in, but an entire way of living and conducting oneself in the public [and wider private] sphere) (Not forgetting that a measured temperant life is also necessary within the home itself).

I note the Hijabis in our area, gentle, kind of word, quiet in their demeanour; a grace and poise that is lost these days in the wider world and so often misinterpreted as ‘oppresion’ or if practiced in Christian circles ‘legalism’. A brief aside on Legalism: I believe many bandy this term about without truly understanding what it means; legalism is one striving in their own strength to win the grace (unmerited gift) of God. Obedience ( the root of this modern word actually meaning ‘to listen’) is one doing a thing, behaving in a certain way because out of selfless love; and joyful realization of the gift they do have. For instance: those of us with husbands (and husbands, this also applies to you with your wives) give of ourselves, our love, our words of encouragement, our actions our behaviours, render gentle kindnesses, support, loving affection and the like, not to win their love, but because we are so moved to do so out of a profound recognition that we are already loved, and in thus giving, are joyed to bring happiness and comfort to the one we love.

I muse; what would this world be like if as many Christian men and women understood the meaning, benefit and value of Christian modesty in the same way Muslim men and women understand ‘hijab’ or the orthodox Jew who observes ‘Tsnius’. Oh, and gentlemen reading this, modesty is for you as well; There are several excellent Quaker articles (that are wise counsel for all Christian men) concerning male modesty of attire and attitude; there need to be more of these written I believe.

Concerning behaviour that stands out, with immediate family and husband who are not believers (they’ve decided for the world’s way) it can be hard to avoid such; I pray for patience and a reform of heart with my hubby, and do what I can when out to help him not act in a way that he will regret when back home and sober… It would be so easy to rant and nag, but this will merely serve to hurt (and is, in retrospect, ‘immodest’). Prayer and living the quieter life (with prayer being the most powerful) will achieve Godly aims far more than ranting.

How much pain would be saved if Christian modesty was authentically and humbly observed in and out of the home and people took it seriously in their own lives and the lives of others? All the hurt and terrible heartache suffered by the vulnerable who are victims to predatory behaviour would at the very least, be greatly reduced.

Finally, at the heart of this is the command given by Christ Himself; ‘love thy neighbour as thyself’ and to do unto others as we would want them to do unto us.

May God bless thee abundantly; I have found myself vigourously nodding in agreement with everything you have written (but do not wish to block up the works of this blog with hundreds of comments :-)

blessings,

Sarah,
Australia.

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